Green Thoughts...
I bought a green bracelet today that says:
צה"ל - אנחנו איתכם
I was not wearing my orange bracelet because I gave it to my sister who landed here yesterday and did not see them being sold today. Tonight I went to a party, where someone noticed my green bracelet. They asked what political group or activism it stands for. I showed it to him, and said it's not political, I appreciate the soldiers. He asked me if it's for the soldiers who are refusing orders, or all soldiers. I answered that it was for all soldiers, and that started quite a discussion.
I have the utmost respect for any soldier who stands up against his unit and states that he disagrees with what is being done.
I have the utmost respect for soldiers who listen to orders given ever when they don't understand them, and would never give them themselves.
I am very glad I do not have to make the choice between those two paths.
posted by 2R at 3:11 AM
31 Comments:
Good post, Sar! I love you...
OK, first I have to ask why you took down your post from yesterday? Just curious. Next, there are different levels of disobeying orders. Let me elaborate. I have respect for those soldiers who disagree in a quiet respectful manner. Meaning, that if a unit finds out that they will be part of the disengagement, and a soldier does not agree, has ethical problems, etc, and he goes up to his commander, explains the problem, and offers an alternative, and conceeds that if nothing can be done, he will acccept the consequences, I have respect for him. He's done it quietly, respectfully, and with the utmost effort to not disrupt his unit so as not to bring dissention to his brothers. This is a soldier that deserves respect and honor. However, a soldier, like this Avi Beeber, is disgusting and deserves to spend much more than 54 days in prison. A soldier like that is looking to make head-lines, make a political statement, and cause dissention in his unit and the army. I have no respect for soldiers like that. A soldier's place is not to make political statements and head-lines. They are there to protect the country and protect their fellow soldiers. Pulling a stunt like he did puts the country and the army's lives in danger and is reprehensible and disgusting. Disobeying orders as a means of making a statement is illegitimate. An army is based on discipline and order. Disrupt that, and there is anarchy. It is 100% different than civil disobedience. I know that this is a very long comment, but your sentiments are being carried by other people, and they are misguided and wrong. Have respect for those soldiers you never hear about; not for the ones you do.
-OC
Also, halacha states that someone who is afraid of battle may not serve in the army because he will wound the morale of his fellow soldiers. So too in the contemporary case, Rabbi Blau argues, if some soldiers disregard orders, it will no doubt bruise the morale of the other soldiers and go against the very nature of the army. Any soldier considering disregarding orders is detrimental to the whole army and should receive an appropriate punishment.
If halacha does not have respect for those soldiers that disobey orders, I don't see how you can.
-OC
I spoke witha friedn of mine who will have to make that decision, obey the orders and evauate Gush, or disobey and go to jail for a 2 months...when I spoke iwth himl, he still wasnt sure what he was going to do
OC: Its much more effective to argue a point by saying that a person's behavior is disgusting, rather than the person himself.
By arguing your point about Avi the way you did, is to personalize attacks, which has many Halachot against it as well.
Since Avi isn't here to defend himself, I would like to provide a comment in his defense. You wrote that you do have respect for soldiers who disagree quietly, without making a big scene, by discussing the issue previously with his commander. Avi and his unit were not told in advance at all that this was going to be their mission. If their commanders were smarter, then they would have told their unit was the mission was, to prevent this from happening in the first place. As a result, when the soliders realized what was happening, thats when Avi refused. An additional 12 soliders threatened to do the same.
Avi has already his jail sentence reduced in half, because the charges against him are being dropped one at a time. He's still appealing the remaining charge.
In any event, I must get home now...Shabbat is coming!
A Shabbat Shalom to all.
PS: I have milluim on Sunday/Monday so I won't be able to reply till then...
Don't worry - my milluim has absolutely nothing to do with the Disengagement (I'm sure you're all breathing a collective sigh of relief :-)
Jameel, I didn't outright go against him. If you will re-read what I wrote, I wrote soldiers LIKE him are ones that I do not respect. It may have been wrong that his unit was not notified ahead of time. But, he still should have waited until after-wards (Or, when he saw where they were going, talk to his commander before the operation started) to voice his dissent; not when there were cameras watching and certainly not in front of civilians. There's no excuse for behavior like that, from him or any other soldier that has done or plans on doing something similar. He's not the first that has dissented in public, and he won't be the last. I won't commend that kind of action. It's inexcusable.
-OC
I think it is important for jews to stand up and say i will not fight another jew. This whole thing is turning into a scary mess. The soldiers know the concequences of their actions, but it defies them to be a part of this utter violence and ripping apart of our people.
Rolling, This isn't a case where a jew is fighting another jew. The soldiers are there to protect and see to it that the people are taken our of their home safely and w/o casuality. There is no doubt that Hamas and other radical groups will use the disengagement to kill and destroy. The soldiers are there to see to it that innocent people are not put in the cross-fire. If there is dissention amongst the units, and there is a lack of cohesion and morale, people will DIE. It is that simple. That is the reality. Anything else is politics, and that is no place for a soldier to be. End of story. Do you have any experience with the army, Rolling?
-OC
OC - To say that i find your comments discusting, low, and uninformed would be an understatement. Do not put Avi down again on this site or i'll erase every comment you ever make here. {no, this is not a free speech blog}. You have not spoken to him. You do not know what was really going on there. You are basing your comments on media aimed at stopping others soldiers from doing what he did. Read all the stories. See what point in the mission he stopped being a part of it all. Don't bring Halacha in to bash another Jew...
Jameel -
Good luck @ miluiim, be safe, and come back with funny stories ;)
shu or nat -
no one knows what they're going to do. it's on everyone's mind.
Veev -
I luv 'ya too!
2r: What are you doing for Yom Pekuda this coming week? I got my "Gush Katif Tzav Shmona" this morning...Check all that apply:
Willing to drive to Gush Katif
Willing to drive others to Gush Katif
Willing to walk to Gush katif (once roads are closed to traffic)
Willing to get arrested
Can document/video events
Willing to demonstrate locally.
Willing to help with logistics
Its going to be a crazy week. The most rediculous thing of all was the charges brought against Nadya Matar this morning for "insulting a public official" (Bassi) What a joke.
Shabbat Shalom - will report back next week :-)
You sing it, Sista!
"Don't bring Halacha in to bash another Jew..."
2R: jews have been using halacha to bash other jews for thousands of years. it's part of our culture; it's what binds us together as a nation. you think jews would still be around today if not for the prevailing concept of "i'm frummer than you" throughout the ages?
"You have not spoken to him."
have you? im not saying you haven't i'm just curious. if you have, could you tell us about it?
and believing in the disengagement, right or wrong it may be, isn't "disgusting, low, and uninformed." it's just another opinion. if you want to give us a reason to believe that 30 years of peace (abiet a cold peace, but who cares) with egypt after trading them the sinai is not a valid precedent for trading away gush katif, then by all means, do so.
Hey Sar. Can you get me a green bracelet too and send it back with Batsheva or Mom and Dad? I've been wanting to get one of those bracelets - especially since my silver one from the love of my life, Shu broke and now my wrist feels naked. But I wanted it to be a "cause" that I believe in. I have 2 bracelets from Kohl's for a "job well done" but I don't really feel like wearing those outside of the work environment. Thanks!
And now...our milluim has been canceled. I now have the ultimate solution for the Hitnatkut. If the kashlach (personnel office) of our Chativa/Division is put in charge of it, then there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it will ever take place.
Since out unit is highly motivated, and its a real-time life-or-death situation unit we asked permission to continue the excersize anyway, and the IDF said, "sure no problem, we'd be thrilled to have you, but we can't insure you, so if you don't mind that..."
There's a limit to what we're willing to do for our country. Hopefully, the IDF will get their act together and we'll do this again next week.
And now...back to work.
Jameel, I agree with you on that. I have a funny personnel story, but that's for another time. Menachem, I knew that AA in Judaic Studies would come in handy sooner or later. But, I wasn't bashing or attempting to bash another Jew. I was just trying to point out another opinion.
2R, you can call my opinions "low and disgusting". That's your right. However, it's very telling. But, "uninformed"? I get my information from actual military sources. People who have been in the Army since before you were born. Uninformed? Highly unlikely.
-OC
OC: Keep in mind that there are military sources for everything, and their expert opinions can be pretty far-off regardless of age. The Yom Kippur war had many military experts telling us that everything was going to be fine and dandy up untill the actual bombs started falling.
As for Oslo - we saw who was right and who wasn't. As for the "Disengagement", its a political pipe dream to keep Sharon out of jail, and Weisglass in the money.
Why do you think Yaalon was fired? Sharon needed a yes-man.
And in case you had any doubts, tonight's channel 2 news had a whole segment on the Jerusalem "disengagement" plan...
Jameel, as I've said since we first talked, you want to make moral equivilincies b/t the disengagement and Oslo, that's your prerogative. I don't and will continue to disagree with you. We'll see who ends up being right in the end. I won't disclose any more information on my sources, and you can continue to think whatever you want. Let's just say in the more than 20 years one of them's been in the military, he hasn't been wrong yet. So, their track record continues to speak for itself. I don't have to defend them to anybody. That's all, Jameel. I'm not going to get into the same argument that we got into over 2 months ago. We'll just go around in circles again, and end up at the same place as we are now. You think one way, and I think another. But, at least, you listen.
-OC
Menachem -
You want to bring in the "peace" we have with Egypt and compare it to a future peace with Gaza? For one it came after 3 years of planning, and hammering out details of the PEACE TREATY that was signed with the president of Egypt. Egypt had also just witnessed what happens to those who mess with Israel in two amazing defeats.
Egypt came to the table whimpering for something. They also were pawns in a US/USSR game.
2R: think carefully about what you just said. there are two reasons for being anti-disengagement.
the first reason, and the reason you've seem to hold until now, is that "yehudi lo megaresh yehudi," and that we can never, ever, evacuate people from their homes.
the second reason, my position, and the position you've inadvertently taken here, is that giving away land without a peace deal is stupid, and rewards terror. giving away land as part of a formal peace deal, ala egypt, works
OC:
What do you have to say about the "Boomerang" book about Sharon?
It was written by leftists and explains the reasons behind Sharon's Disengagement plan. (Sharon was afraid to go to jail).
It also says (and this was brought up last week in the Knesset) that the IDF MatKal (joint chief of staff), and the RaMATKAL himself heard about the Disengagement from the MEDIA...not Sharon. Doesn't sound like class act security planning to me.
While you think there's a big difference between Oslo and Disengagement, how do you explain the additional disengagements going now as we speak (Jerusalem, big report last night channel 2 news), and Olmert's latest statements. (That this is only disengagement one of many).
Rav Aviner presents - The Ten Commandments
http://www.havabooks.co.il/NewsPaper/DisplayArticle.asp?ArticleId=54
Jameel, again, I'm not getting back into this w/ you. But, just as an aside, that book was filled with facts that turned out to be untrue. But, again, Jameel, try to suck some-one else into your arguments.
Anonymous, being that you're unwilling to give a name is very telling on your part. Again, I don't have to defend my sources to anybody. And, these petty jabs only proves my point. Other than that, I'm not leaving negative remarks, only different points of view. Again, that comment proves my point. Thanks.
-OC
OC: Suck someone else into my arguments? Well, excuse me for living!
I thought I was trying to have an intelligent discussion about possible dangers of disengagement on a political, moral and security basis. To disqualify everything and anything that I try to say as "sucking someone argument" is exactly the demagoguery that is pushing the Disengagement forward. To quash (IMHO) legitimate debate with such off-handedness is poor technique.
Jameel, forgive my use of wording. All I was trying to say is that we've had this conversation before. It went nowhere, so I don't really want to have it anymore. It's pointless. All I was suggesting is that I'm not going to argue with you anymore. That's all. Anonymous, you made no points. I wasn't referring to this article. You commented on my attitude, and I responded back. End of story. Your comment proved my point, if you would read my blog, that having a different point of view has resulted in name calling and being called negative, when it is simply a DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.
-OC
OC: Reminds me of conversation I had with a leftist 10 years ago in 1995.
I asked him how many buses would blow up before he admitted Olso was a dismal failure.
His answer - there aren't enough buses in Israel to prove him wrong.
Nothing will prove to your that your military sources are wrong.
Its just unfortunate, that once again, the Jews who sacrafice the most for the country, are the ones being thrown out of their homes.
In Oslo, the settlers were sacrificed as Guiney Pigs on the Left's alter of Peace. Now, they also get kicked out of their homes.
Hurrah.
Jameel...Oh, Jameel...Oy, you ever feel like you're banging your head against a brick wall while listening to a broken record?
-OC
broken record:
The Expulsion is Good for the Jews
The Expulsion is Good for the Jews
The Expulsion is Good for the Jews
The Expulsion is Good for the Jews
Repeat the lie till you believe its true.
After all -- it must be good for the Jews. Look who supports it:
-All the Arab countires.
(They must have out best interests at heart)
-Spain (they have lots of experience in evicting Jews from their homes)
-Germany (they know about repeating the same lie often enough)
-The Vatican (what? We don't have no menorah in our basement...)
So, we must be a bunch of looney right wing crazies!!! After all -- the ENTIRE world thinks its the right thing to do!
OC: I have a feeling your klita's going to be extremely easy.
Ok, Jameel. Good one!
-OC
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